Tuesday, 24 June 2014

RVC opens new clinic for defective dogs


In today's most depressing dog news, the Royal Veterinary College announces it is to open a special clinic for brachycephalic dogs - like this Pug above who, despite being desperate to sleep, is standing in an effort to keep his head up and his airways open.

This of course, is considered "cute" in Pugland (and beyond) where those that breed, buy, register  and purport to love brachycephalic dogs remain stubbornly impervious to the suffering.

The RVC press release pulls no punches.
"This type of breed is one of the most popular pet choices in the UK, but the breeding of brachycephalic dogs has lead to a variety of health issues for the animals. These include problems with their bones and gait as well as eye, heart, ear (including hearing), skin, and breathing complications. 
"Brachycephalic dogs have a compressed skull in the front and in the back, which results in the soft tissues being crammed within and around the skull. In severe cases it can even appear the dog has no nose at all. 
"This means the animals are at especially high risk of developing respiratory problems such as brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome (BOAS). The clinical signs include breathing difficulties, noises during respiration, ‘constant smiling’, overheating, gagging and choking. 
"But it isn’t just a dog’s breathing that is severely affected by the condition. The short skull also results in the dog’s skin folding over the front of the face, creating deep crevices which are a warm and moist environment that encourages growth of bacteria and yeasts. These bacteria can then attack the skin causing infection. 
"The flattening of the skull also causes the eye sockets to become shallow, meaning the eyeball protrudes significantly. Therefore the cornea is more exposed than usual, making it more likely to become dry, leading to ulceration or direct trauma. Other health issues can include heart problems, ear and hearing issues and complications with the animal’s bones and gait.

They should have added dental issues to the list too - this picture shows the internal consequence of breeding for a flat face: teeth overcrowding/misalignment that often results in painful infections.



But, of course, despite the litany of life-impairing health problems suffered by  Pugs, Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, Pekes and others, nobody is doing a blind thing to stop it.

And let's be blunt here - these dogs' suffering is a marketing and income-flow opportunity for the veterinary profession.

I suggest if the RVC wants to feel good about this that it also needs to be issuing a  really strong statement saying that breeding dogs this defective is morally and ethically unsupportable.

Almost all vets will admit this privately.

Unfortunately,  neutering/de-barking has always been part and parcel of veterinary training.

The new RVC clinic for brachycephalic dogs opens its doors on July 1st.

PS: The video at the top is from this site.. scroll down to have a look at the comments...

64 comments:

  1. What has the illegal (in the UK) procedure of de-barking got to do with the article?

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  2. Neutering and de-barking of the *vets*...

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    1. Of course it is sad that there is room for these kind of clinics but what is irritating me is this: "The flattening of the skull also causes the eye sockets to become shallow, meaning the eyeball protrudes significantly. Therefore the cornea is more exposed than usual, making it more likely to become dry, leading to ulceration or direct trauma. Flattening of the skull?? Have they ever seen a skull of a Pug or other short nosed breed? To me this kind of info makes me wonder if we can take the expertise of these vets serious. Or do I not understand the word flattening right in how it is meant here?

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    2. The front of the skull, ie the muzzle, is most certainly flattened!

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    3. "standing in an effort to keep his head up and his airways open.

      This of course, is considered "cute" in Pugland (and beyond) where those that breed, buy, register and purport to love brachycephalic dogs remain stubbornly impervious to the suffering."

      Some do remain "stubbornly impervious to the suffering" and some don't.

      Newbies to the breed are often shocked and distressed their little puggsel can't breath and needs an operation.

      Do you think breeders tell them when they buy their puppy that it has stenotic nares and will need an operation to breath properly?

      No they don't.

      I can personally vouch for this fact when I investigated French bulldogs from top to bottom, meeting many breeders across the globe and looking but failing at finding prospects for a healthy pet. Most people cant afford to go to these lenghs or even want to or should in fact even need to to get a healthy pet.

      Why would a breeder tell a buyer when these same dogs are able to win top honours at a dog show? Why would they wreck a chance at an expensive sale for that matter?

      If the dog gets into difficulties and the new owner can even recognise this fact they take it to the vet and thats when they learn their dog has problems with breathing and only unless the vet tells them and they often don't to your point will they learn the dog is in fact deformed.
      Owners don't necessarily make the connection that this is how they are all bred either thinking its just their dog thats a problem.

      They contact the breeder who simply states that their dogs don't have that problem. The nose must grown closed because of bad diet or sleeping the wrong way or or and or.......always a reason usually "environment" everything besides incredibly badly bred dogs. But of course! This is how breeders behave.

      No not all buyers are impervious to their pugs suffering, some are just uninformed and mislead and many are caught by surprise learning the hard way, many.

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    4. I find it hard to believe owners cannot see that the animal is deformed with their own two eyes. They know what a normal dog should look like, right? They see foxes and coyotes and wolves on TV - they see heinz 57 mongrels with normal body shapes do they not?
      Is it such a leap of logic to see that pugs and bulldogs are abnormal?

      If people are really that stupid then I fear for the future of the human race.

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    5. They haven't done for hundreds of years. I don't think Homo sapiens see domestic dogs as wild animals at least not for thousands of years either.

      I think its arrogant to think because you are enlightened about what a deformed pug looks like that suddenly the whole world is too.

      We might wish that were the case but its not.

      I've never seen a "Heinz 57 mongrel" what cross is that?

      I fear for the planet and many many other species caught in our march of destruction. I put my own species last on the list of concern.

      This awareness of the health implications for brachycephalic breeds is fairly recent in fact for most.

      It's far too easy to pretend its suddenly not.

      For myself I have thought for a long time a bulldog for example is not the dog for me as its not functional enough, I prefer more athletic dogs. But we must realise surely that the bulldog has always been a symbol of exactly the opposite to what we now know.

      The bulldog has been for the longest time a symbol of the strength and tenacity of a small Island nation in the sea. Ironically Winston Churchill's tenacity and looks often associated with the bulldog kept cats and two mini brown poodles which Im sure where a constant delight and comfort.

      Despite your fear for the human race It's not entirely surprising then is it that people still believe its a robust healthy breed.

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  3. My vet has told me quite plainly that sighthounds are more prone to musculoskeletal injuries due to their slight frames. Whether he would go as far to say that it's a welfare problem, I don't know. He does have a point and it certainly made me consider it from a well-being angle.

    I would therefore like to be a fly on the wall of a consultation with a brachy dog. I'm sure he would tell owners if their dogs couldn't breath properly and he'd likely point out the other health problems related to their flat faces.

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    1. Wow, good blog today. I love frank communication.

      Interesting comment above about sighthounds, too. Pugs are apart of the wave of freakish modern breeds, but sighthounds have been around for thousands of years - since the time of the ancient Egyptians. Maybe inbreeding depression has something to do with their fragility today, regardless of morphology. But then, there is no denying that sighthounds are less robust than other types of dogs.

      Yes, the RVC should have included dental problems in their litany of brachycephalic maladies. I hope they do make frank recommendations for animal welfare, and do not end up "neutered and debarked." As I've said, people rave about the diversity of the dog, but if you remove all the pathologies, like dwarfism, brachycephaly, and other conditions that are not just different, but actually harmful, you end up with a lot less variety in the form of the dog. In the end, dogs are domesticated wolves, and must have a canid body plan to be healthy. Take that away, and you're just screwing them up for fun and profit.

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    2. Not true. That vet has never been out coursing with sighthounds! They are as resilient as steel.

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    3. I think a dog like the one in the video should be euthanized to put it out of its misery.

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    4. Oh hooorah!!!! Or depending on the area code hooooray!

      I can hear this echoing around all corners of the UK, showing fanciers and their breeders, fans and owners crying out in excitement. Their very own clinic for their very own special special breeds.

      Hoooorah!!!

      How exciting no more careful instructions to the vet for routine procedures no more hunting down vets used to treating brachys, no more anxiety for us and our precious deformed dogs. Understanding, sympathy and specialists all for us, just us !

      Hooorahhhh!!!!!

      Hoorah for the RVC, not only will they be doing a great service for the puggsies of this world but they may corner the market in treating one of the most popular breeds too. Brilliant all round?

      Ok enough with the hooraying.

      Fran Im not sure your vet isn't being a bit sweeping with his comment about sighthounds, some of the slightest are extremely robust and some the heaviest extremely fragile. From the Irish Wolf hound to the whippet there are certainly fragile types around but also some of the most robust in pedigree dogs today certainly working strains.

      I think he means showing stock, even then are they so fragile compared to any other linebred breeds of dog?

      Aren't they all?

      Well...almost all. What makes them fragile is not so much something like slight of frame but slight of genetic depth. In the case of obvious deformities it's both of course but these are not so apparent in sighthounds.

      The type in general are quite robust and includes many primitive pariah type dogs found feral in many countries, its almost a formula for survival, lightness, speed, endurance and strength not least cunning.

      "Intelligence" (clears throat) in some pedigree breeds of sight hound is sometimes a little wanting but thats subjective is it not?

      The message that severely brachycephalic dogs suffer unnecessarily is obviously not getting around when they are still "one of the most popular" choices of breeds in the UK today.

      My reptile vet ironically (or perhaps not) is very outspoken on this issue and congratulated me on my choice of dog, she is a specialist in reptiles because there is an urgent need but has had some bad experiences treating pugs with both the owners and the dogs.

      Absolutely yes vets are just human and not monster money making grubbing machines but like us all most certainly want to do well in life too. Yes not always is this at the expense of animals but it most certainly can be too. Annual inoculations just one issue that took years to so call "clarify" in their minds. Despite very clear research many continued dragging their feet on this issue and in some countries (mine) continue happily to do so.

      However not dissuading the public from buying dogs that will almost certainly suffer as a result of breeding is a very serious issue IMO.

      Vets should most definitely should have a list of the top ten most healthy dog breeds today up for all to see.



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  4. Then is is indeed a language thing, studying the brachy breeds skull we use flattering when talking about the top of the skull and shortening when talked about the muzzle and whole skull.

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  5. I really doubt vets are the ones churning out hideous little dogs for their own benefit. I never really understood the notion of a veterinarian as a money grubber when they go through the same classes as a human doctor for a sliver of the pay. I can get a dog spayed in this town for less than it costs to get my hair colored. If we're going to.blame anyone, we can start with those doing the breeding and the buying and stop pretending that a veterinarian is rubbing his hands together like an old timey villain whenever he sees a sick little dog. Its kind of like saying doctors love obesity, yet most doctors fat people have seen are quick to tell you they hate obesity so.much they almost hate fat patients.

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    1. Wow you can get a dog neutered for 45 quid?? Mine cost 230.
      In the 7 years I've owned my persian not one vet has told me he is brachy and when I said I did not want a anesthetic if not needed for him I was told that flat faced breeds are not anesthetic risks. I politely declined.

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    2. I have to agree with anonymous below; I can get my hair cut for £10 here. A spay on a dog starts at about £100, and raises with the weight of the dog up to about £300.

      And like it or not SOME vets are money grabbing. Sorry.
      You go on about all the training they do, but I've had so many sorry excuses for vets attempt to treat my rats but resort to shaking his head and saying 'we don't know much about rats'. Time and time again. So clearly, they're not getting a great amount of 'training' in every area......

      They also push spaying and neutering not as a choice but as almost a necessity. They don't ever mention the myriad of health issues it can cause, particularly on young dogs who haven't fully developed. When I took my dog in for his first vaccines as a pup, I wasn't asked 'are you going to have him neutered?' I was told 'WHEN you bring him in to be neutered......'
      And we've already touched on vaccines, which are still pushed annually here, despite research suggesting they're not necessary and potentially damaging when done yearly.

      When I took my epileptic rat to the vet following his third seizure, the vet basically told me she knew NOTHING about the condition in rats, and sent me away...........still with a bill for £30 for the 'consultation'.

      And lets look at the bags of crappy kibble they stock in the waiting rooms, and push on clients.
      I feed raw, as I firmly believe its best, but when I took dresden in as a pup, he tried to force me off raw and onto a 'large breed puppy kibble' which he showed me a bag of that he just happened to sell at his practise. Ingredients were full of junk and filler and unecessary crap.
      When I questioned why my dog needed 'beet pulp' in his diet, or cereal, he couldn't give me a good answer.
      But hey, they make money off it, and people blindly follow their advice because 'if they're a vet, they must know best!!' and sadly, its not always true.

      There are some great vets out there, but you have to wade through a lot of chaff to get to them.

      When I took my extremely brachy rescue exotic cat to the vet because I was concerned with her weepy eyes and horrible breathing issues. They just laughed and said she was 'cute' and her breathing was just 'normal for her breed'.
      My poor cat suffers daily because not only is she EXTREMELY brachy, with a nose right between her eyes, but she has stenotic nares on one side. Her eyes need cleaning several times a day because they get crusty and if not done, even crust closed and go gunky. And the vets didn't think this was an issue. Trying to find a vet to even CONSIDER something like surgery on her for it was impossible; they all thought she was fine and it was normal for her breed.

      Blind faith in vets is NOT a good idea. On my issues, and especially when we start talking about species other than dogs and cats, they have no clue. I've yet to meet a vet who knows as much about rats as me. I've had some tell me their teeth need removing because they're 'covered in plaque' (referring to the NATURAL orange colouration of rat teeth) had another call 'internal bleeding' when a rat had porphyrin on its nose, and several attempt to pick my rats up by their tails!

      I always thought it was just a 'rat' thing and vets hadn't had enough training (they get about half a day training on rodents, and that covers rabbits too, and ALL rodent species without making distinctions) but since having my dog, I've run into a lot of clueless vets there, too.

      When you find a good one, they're worth their weight in gold.

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    3. Ziggy are vaccinations still pushed as an annual necessity in the UK?

      I was trying to get the low down on this and was informed that in the UK most vaccinations are now three yearly as a compromise?

      Human example tells us that vaccinations should last the life of dog in fact, except for a few things like tetanus maybe.

      Anyway I was trying to make sense of this with the vet for my dogs , an Australian working out here who still insists annual vaccinations are the way to go, though I noticed for rabies he is suddenly this year for the first time doing it on a three yearly basis.

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  6. "But, of course, despite the litany of life-impairing health problems suffered by Pugs, Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, Pekes and others, nobody is doing a blind thing to stop it."
    Why aren't you doing something to stop it? You talk a good talk but that is all you do. Try some action for a change........

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    1. Well, educating people about the perils of brachy breeds via this blog is action.

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    2. It is entirely due to Jemima and her documentary that I decided that despite my fondness for the breed I will never own a Cavalier, because they are such horrendously sick little dogs and I can't support the breeding of them. I'm fairly sure there are lovers of Pugs who feel the same.

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    3. What do you suggest jemima does? She's raising AWARENESS, which is a huge part of the battle. What other suggestions do you have? Short of breeding pugs herself and trying for healthier types, I fail to see what you expect her to be able to do for such a huge problem, other than try to educate.....which she already does.

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  7. Tomorrow I celebrate my 36th MRI, next to my official heart tests, patella tests, official eye tests for every Griffon I own or co own. If the are for breeding or not. From those dogs the best are used for breeding. There are not many in our breed but still there are more people out there who do this. Also in other breeds this is done, people who work hard to make their breed a healthier one than it is now. Those breeders do not get any attention, they are not so interesting for the media they are not so interesting for their fellow breeders and they are not interesting for people who only talk and do nothing. To support these breeders will help far more then only complaining about the bad ones. Breeders like to show so the solution is there to let every brachy breed do a breathing test before they can be shown. Let every Irish Wolfhound have a heart test done before it may enter a show. And more and more for all the other breeds that suffer of a lot of different sicknesses. Be positive for all the mix breed programs that are going on today. Give them lots of publicity. You cannot wipe out whole breeds or breed groups but you can help by being supportive to those who do something about the horrible situations some breeds are in. We all know that the public has the power so they can help to change all this not by talking but to do something that is in their power to do. Standards might need to change, UK has done some good work there,The FCI has still not changed standards of the needed breeds and that is very sad. In Belgium some of the board members do not see a problem at all for the Griffon breed and MRI'n the breed is not for Belgium dogs because they do not need this?? Very upsetting to hear this and that is what need to be changed quickly too that a country can keep a breed from being healthier because the country of origine refuse to do something about severe genetic disorders.

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    1. You can MRI scan your dogs until you are blue in the face and brag about how many you have had scanned, you will make little difference unless you actually breed them away from being deformed. Dogs that are brachy basically are dogs that have been bred with an extreme deformity and for what Henny ? because you like them to look like that.
      Until you can admit that a dog being brachy is a health issue and breed them away from this severe deformity you might as well be scanning your dogs backside.

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    2. I am sorry 21.54 but you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Henny has made a HUGE difference to griffon's and other breeds affected by SM .

      As for your final comment that is purely rude and uncalled for. it sounds as if it were up to you ,you would just breed a longer nose and smugly feel you had solved the problem , while your " non deformed" long nosed dogs could be suffering from very painful illnesses , But you wouldn't know since you consider scanning to be worthless.

      lengthening the nose doesn't work , not that simple and already tried with cavaliers. its not a magic cure all

      Henny has science , research and a hell of a lot of time and money spent on her side .
      What have YOU done?

      PS if you had actually read henny's post she does mention changing breed standards

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    3. Tired Caregiver27 June 2014 at 08:10

      I don't think anyone is saying that scanning won't help with the issue of SM. Nor are they saying that breeding a long nose WILL help. But even if a breeder scans and works to lessen the chance of SM, they are STILL breeding for deformity in another direction. A breeder of a brachy breed who does all of the health testing possible and carefully chooses every breeding is still a breeder creating brachy dogs, and that's still not ethical in my opinion. They are most certainly MORE ethical than many others, but the dogs they produce still suffer. Indeed, I don't see any possible way to breed brachy dogs in an ethical manner.

      Further, I simply don't think it's true that casting light on bad breeders and practices is unwarranted or unhelpful. The fact is that the vast majority of dogs are owned by general Joe public, not show breeders. They don't know the ins and outs of any of this...as evidenced by this video showing a dog that is clearly struggling to breathe. Most of the public only see a cute dog and want their own. What Pedigreed Dogs Exposed did, and what this blog and people speaking out continue to do, is clue in the public that something has gone horribly wrong here. Maybe the owner of this particular pug will never seen the light, but perhaps someone considering owning a pug will. There's a huge amount of value in working to change public opinion and in educating the public that a problem even exists. We can in reality do both...this blog posts plenty of stories about good breeders and new tests that are developed on top of showing the bad.

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    4. Actually if you read the nasty post above they do say scanning is a waste of time which i find hugely insulting , especially since most breeders don't bother to do it and go on breeding dogs in severe pain.

      How do you mean " breed away " from being brachycephalic ? they either are or they are not ,
      if the breed has the genes breeding longer noses won't get rid of them ( & in my opinion its the other affects on the body that go hand in hand that are more of a concern than nose length.)

      If you are not happy with breeders choosing dogs who breath well , if that is not good enough for you & you want no brachycephalism at all then a lot of breeds are going to go extinct.
      Shih tsu , lhasa, tibetan spaniel , affenpinscher, staffies. Bullmastiffs , boxers . rotties. most bull and mastiff breeds

      Can't breed them because that is totally unethical according to you. even with longer noses they will still have the brachy genes.



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    5. My nasty post as you put it so eloquently, did not say scanning was a waste of time. It said scanning is a waste of time unless you except that it has to be done along the idea of changing the head shape back to a more functional shape. Brachy is man made in dogs and we know is detrimental to the function of the skull, soft tissues and teeth, because unlike natural evolution (it gets it wrong from time to time) which changes things over thousands of years giving time for the change to be accommodated within the muscular skeletal structure of an animal, dog breeders think they can make major changes to a dogs body in a wink of an eye and everything else will fall into place. Making dogs brachy shows graphically how bad humans are at breeding animals.
      Love the fact that you also then assume that I know nothing about dogs being brachy, unlike Henny I don't feel the need to tell you all about the health tests I perform on my dogs and that I celebrate the fact that my breed is so sick that I have to do these tests and I then feel it lets me off the hook as some sort of angel breeder of brachy dogs because I do health tests, which in time will reduce the gene pool further, brachy is a double edged sword I'm afraid.
      Lots of domestic dog breeds have gone extinct already and the world has not spun off it axis. The breeds you mention have been around for a wink of an eye compared to the whole evolution of the domestic canine and it is only the people who champion them that will miss them. A dog breed is only a man made dog, that is a group of exaggerations that either pleases their ideal of aesthetic beauty at a time in history or does a job for them at a certain time in history. Creating a dog breed can be done quite quickly, just choose your exaggerations (selection), then add line breeding(incest) and Bob's your Uncle and within a few years you will of created what you like to call a breed.
      As we now know how wrong we have got it breeding dogs with this skull shape, we should breed away from this and if you believe that being brachy is the only defining feature of the breeds you mention, then they will extinct themselves, which they are in the process of doing because you are breeding them to be brachy, which is slightly ironic.
      Now I have been breeding away from being brachy in a breed now for 5 years and every time we have cross a brachy dog with a breed that is dolichocephalic the result throws towards the cranium narrowing and lengthening and the muzzle is longer. When sperm are offered that have a higher predisposition towards a more dolichocephalic skull, natural selection by the egg will select away from exaggeration the majority of the time, as this is seen as an evolutionary negative, having a brachy skull for a dog is a evolutionary negative.
      I suspect most dogs carry some brachy genes like all dogs carry some duff genes and good genes, as that is how brachy breeds were created, breeding from dogs that displayed the deformed skull and muzzle, closing of the gene pool and then letting incest do the rest, lets just keep doubling up those duff genes, what could possible go wrong. Lol On the very rare occasion in a long nosed breed you get a dog that is brachy and this pup would be considered a deformed offspring normally born by c-section and would not be bred from. If though a dog carries a higher predisposition for dolichocephalic shape skulls that is what you are most likely to get.
      It is unethical to breed dogs to intentionally be brachy. At the moment you are just treating the symptoms of the condition which is being brachy and until you get your head around the fact that being brachy is not what a dogs head should be like and it causes them unnecessary suffering you might as well sit in a dark room with cotton wool in your ears, because from here that looks like what you are doing already.

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    6. So you are still breeding from dogs with brachy genes.? why not just stop breeding from them all together . Why use brachy dogs in the mix at all if you are so against them ?
      Plenty of breeds around that are not brachy for you to choose from.

      & are you really suggesting that an egg chooses sperm ? it sits there and what ever sperm is fastest fertilises it.
      & genetics just do not work that way. nature does not know or care about good and bad genes , whatever survives continues. Actually from natures point of view pugs and bulldogs are fantastic as we take care of them and help them reproduce.

      You obviously have very little understanding of your subject.

      Thank god people like henny actually do scientific research to reach their conclusions , otherwise we'd have lots of long nosed gasping for breath SM affected dogs walking around with smug owners like you claiming they are fine because they look " natural" ( oh we already do , they are cavalier breeders)

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    7. I really cannot believe that you think an ovum sits there thinking about the moral rights and wrongs of evolution. Does it give each sperm an interview ,lol does the ovum have a little flow chart on how its ideal descendants will evolve & the ultimate goal it envisions.

      From an evolutionary point of view the baby faced explosion of little pugs spreading across the planet being fed and cared for and protected is the ultimate outcome.
      evolution is not sentient , it doesn't have a vision of a utopian world of graceful long nosed , long limbed pugs galloping across prairie.

      Evolution DOES NOT CARE , Nature DOES NOT CARE.

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    8. Asnonymous 11:43 The brachy breed that I am breeding was not a brachy breed originally and I use it still because of the nature of the dog, not the look it has been made into and I would like to over time show people how you can breed away from this condition with the breed and still keep the essence of your breed/type even if they are not brachy.
      You really are finding what I say hard to comprehend and I apologies if I'm not putting myself over clearly enough, most dogs I suspect carry duff genes for the formation of the skull, but are so out weighed by carrying eggs/sperm with good genes for the formation of the skull, so I guess loads of us that don't even breed brachy breeds potentially breed with dogs that could be carrying a group of genes that could produce a brachy skull and on occasion do.
      Please read this article http://www.pawpeds.com/pawacaden which is called Natural Protection of Genetic Variation, by Per-Erik Sundgren written in 2006. Sperm do not have a first past the post winner takes all or violently penetrate the egg as thought in the past, read the article you may find it of interest and would hope you already knew this if breeding dogs. Another good point of reference would be to read the Britannica guide to Genetics.It seems by your comments that you don't know much about the actual process of conception in mammals.
      You suggest that you can breed dogs as deformed as you like because you can help them and that's an evolutionary plus. So lets get it right, you think it's okay to breed dogs that have been bred with conditions detrimental to their health and struggle to reproduce on their own because you then can help them. So you don't see low fertility in a breed as a health issue and a warning ?
      I MRI scan all my dogs including cross breeds and do several other health tests, but lets not make this a " I'm so smug because I do this number of health tests."
      To suggest that I am smugly walking around with long nosed dogs gasping for air and with SM shows how nasty people can be within the dog breeding fraternity, especially the snide remark intended for Cavalier breeders, as they say, "It's a dog eat dog world out there" and especially in the dog breeding world it seems.

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    9. Anonymous 11:55 you really don't no much about natural selection and it has been proven that this starts from conception and yes, it seems the egg has an ability to chose sperm thought to be more compatible, hence why we see with reduced genetics in a gene pool often a drastic drop in fertility because as you drop genetic variation you drop the number of sperm that the egg can pick to make a viable full term fetus.
      Nature and evolution want to survive and humans breed animals that ultimately because of their lack of regard for evolution and nature soon die out compared to nature and evolution's work with breeding. Nature and evolution in keeping species surviving have a far better record than humans.

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    10. Wow ! Anonymous 11:43 and 11:55 that's basic biology now that the egg selects the sperm. I hate to break it to you as well, the Earth is not flat. Lol

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    11. Nice that you can give criticism & blast Henny for doing the best they can but can't take it yourself.

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    12. nope , you are still not listening ( or reading what people actually say by the looks of it)
      Evolution does not care. if something survives it is a win for evolution , it doesn't care how much suffering occurs along the way.

      All the moralising and philosophy is a human concern.
      Evolution is a process it doesn't have thoughts and feelings or good and bad.

      YOU can not rely on nature to fix problems for you. Sperm and eggs do not have thought processes. There is no goal other than surviving and reproducing.

      Hyena's give birth through a narrow pseudo penis & risk bleeding to death. That is what your perfect nature has selected for them.
      There are many other instances of wild animals with serious flaws.
      You can not rely on those clever little sperm and nature to know what's best & fix your problems , or assume the " natural " type is perfect.

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    13. WHY are you breeding and cross breeding , as your previous posts state what does it matter if breeds go extinct. you can start from scratch and have something in a few generations

      So why go to the expense, time and effort to mri scan your dogs and cross breed them & bringing more puppies into the world to potentially suffer ( because if you have a cross brachy SM affected breed ,Dogs with SM and the short noses you hate still appear, as you say yourself )

      You attack henny for breeding from happy healthy dogs that happen to have a short nose saying it is morally wrong but continue breeding from your own dogs when it would be much more ethical and easier for you just to choose a different breed that doesn't need MRI scanning.

      Delete
    14. Really is it worth replying to you all when you don't even know or don't want to know or admit that the egg is programmed to pick a sperm most closely matching her MHS complex, that's nature surviving.
      At no time have I inferred there is a thought process to this occurrence and it seems that none of you are reading the link I put on here to confirm this.
      If you did read the link and actually can process the information, then it will answer most of your questions.
      Cross breeding gives more genetic variation, which is thought to be survival tactic of nature in mammal reproduction. All the dogs we have bred from are SM clear and have SM clear parents and we have yet to have a cross breed that does not throw towards the longer nose and lengthening of nose, measurements of the cranium put them out of the brachy spectrum on the cephalic index. I say any time you breed there is potential for selection by the ovum to get it wrong and potentially within all dog breeding a brachy pup could turn up and on occasion they do to parents that neither are brachy, nature gets it wrong some times.
      I also did say nature gets it wrong and sexual reproduction in mammals is risky for them all and many mammals die in the process of birth or post by bleeding to death. One of the big unanswered science questions is, why sexual reproduction ? as there are better ways to reproduce, so maybe nature got that wrong to.
      It's amazing when you come on here how people will assume and then put words in your mouth, as apparently I think that the natural type is perfect, I think that sperm and eggs have a thought process, I think that nature cares and evolution is not a process and apparently I can't take criticism. None of those things I have said and I'm here and I have replied you, so that sort of makes me up for criticism, but don't worry I have come to the conclusion that commenting on this is like banging your head against a brick wall and my time would be better spent elsewhere, so go and knock yourselves all out having a bitchen time back at what I have just said. Enjoy !


      Delete
    15. Anonymous 18:06 I think the person was being sarcastic about how you create breeds and sending you all up and that creating or keeping a breed you should not put the breed before the function and health of the individual animal. My he/she has made you all bite.

      Delete
    16. Tired Caregiver28 June 2014 at 04:28

      I'm really curious about your concept of 'brachy genes' still being presented and still negatively affecting the dog after breeding away from a flat face. The brachy gene IS the flat face, yes? I'm also assuming the gene is recessive, since you simply don't see any 'wild' or feral breed with a short face, and most mixes between a brachy breed and a long nose breed have longer noses. So if you breed say a pug for a longer nose, are you saying they still have 'hidden' brachy genes that are negatively affecting them? Are you saying they will throw flatter faced pups then the parents due to their 'brachy genes?'

      Delete
    17. No the brachy gene is not a flat face , you can have a breed like a pug and select longer nosed individuals but they are still brachycephalic & still have those genes, they are just not being expressed as strongly.

      Cavaliers where recreated by breeding a longer nosed toy spaniel ( brachy) to a papillon & a few other spaniels and look at the state they are in.

      Choosing a long nose from a population of affected animals is not a magic cure all. & it is NOT only the nose that is affected by those genes ( that is why brachy dogs tend to have short spines & bent tails. The heart issues may also be related )

      So if you hate the flat face so much I don't see why you would use brachy dogs in your breeding program AT ALL.
      Breathing aside there is no difference between the longer nose and shorter nosed dogs apart from gene expression.

      If you've ever heard of outbreeding depression you may actually make things WORSE by breeding to a longer nosed breed as you are mixing genes that have not evolved to work together.
      look at cavaliers,their teeth don't fit in their mouths properly , their palates are too long. their brains don't match their skull.
      If you don't want a flat face just don't use those dogs in your breeding program at all . I really don't see how anyoen can justify slating another person for having short nosed dogs when they are using them to breed from.

      Delete
    18. Anonymous 11:42 The cephalic index is the measurement of the cranium and does not include the muzzle so qualifying to be brachycephalic the cranium is wider than the length of the cranium. Hence we see some breeds that are classified has brachy with longer noses.
      After doing lots of research and taking advice from vets I went ahead with crossing. If you actually look at all research by the scientific community they actually see the only way forward to improve these brachy flat faced breeds is out crossing.
      The bit you say about genes that have not evolved to work together I suspect is pure breed diatribe and shows that you may have little understanding of genetics and the evolution process, because what you have bred together is a prime example of genes not working together, dogs are not meant to have flat faces or skulls wider than the length of the cranium. Dogs have only been bred into pure breeds for such a little time compared to the whole evolution of the canine and in evolutionary terms in pure breeding you have not even evolved an eye let alone able to wink. Breeding dogs together with the same health issues which is what you do with pure breeders is were you can go wrong with cross breeding, so if you breed two breeds together with the high levels of the same health issues, you are just as likely to breed dogs with those health issues as pure breeding.
      I have been cross breeding a brachy breed, yes, Cavaliers for the last five years and none of the offspring have breathing problems and people who have had them who have had Cavaliers comment on the absence of snoring or swallowing their soft palate or eye problems and more tolerant of hot weather, and with the oldest at five years old, we have yet to have reports of any MVD. The cranium is also not so wide and the skull as lengthened, the teeth are aligned correctly and the eye sockets are less extreme, so the eye sits at a less protruding point, so less likelihood of damage to the eye. From personal experience of cross breeding carefully using health testing and taking advice from vets the improvement to the dogs health is positive. All vets I have spoken to about my cross breeding which are the vet that heart test, the vet that eye tests my dogs and the vet that MRI scans my dogs is a resounding it's good to see a breeder who has seen the light and all feed back from the veterinary community has been positive to what I am trying to do.
      No one has slated Henny, just suggested that along with health testing there has to be a game plan to improve the skulls shape, so the dog has improved ability to regulate it's body temperature, improved space for dental alignment, improved eye sockets, improved airways and more room for the brain, this things cannot improve unless you drastically change the shape of the skull and if Henny and you cannot take constructive criticism then don't come on a website telling us about the amount of health tests without actually telling us the game plan that you are applying along with all your health tests as health testing for brachy dogs means nothing unless you get your head around the fact that the head shape needs to change. One of the main problems within the pure breed culture is that you don't seem able to take constructive criticism and think waving health tests around is the cure for all the ills of the pure breed world and it's carry on as normal, as long as you do health tests. it's okay.
      You ask why use a brachy breed and that is because I don't believe brachy is what defines a Cavalier and the nature of these dogs is such that this alone is worth trying to keep, they have very low aggression, so I use this breed in my breeding program to create a small type sporting spaniel harking back to the type of the Marlborough Spaniel, and the Trawler Spaniel which still can be seen in Cavaliers every now and then in ones that have more curl than desired in the show ring. I don't want a flat face hence crossing them.



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    19. I would be interested in hearing more...

      Jemima

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    20. Many crosses were tried to get the longer nose back and the cocker was believed to be one as well.
      The problem with Cavaliers is they did not keep breeding away from being bracy, but instead got stuck with revised breed standard with a nose measurement, and a closed of gene pool in 1942 with only five or so stud dogs. The inbreeding that took place in this breed at the beginning and in recent years the further shortening of the nose and more Cavaliers appearing with a domed head and what is going on with the stop in this breed is any ones guess,( it certainly is not with keeping with the hallowed breed standard), is why this breed is in a mess, not from cross breeding.
      We all have loads of genes that don't express themselves or are not being expressed so strongly. If the longer nose from crossing with a short nose is more often expressed, then we would then consider that the genes that express brachy are recessive. That is what recessive is, it is less likely to be expressed when another genetic variation is offered at conception.
      If you think that all the traits that Henny selects for could be related to other health issues then why keep selecting for those traits ?
      As the domestic pure breeds have only been shut of in gene pools for such a small time in evolutionary terms saying, "mixing genes that have not evolved to work together" about long and short nose dogs is not the case.
      Outbreeding depression like inbreeding depression is often caused by trying to make to much change quickly, like we see in linebreeding and is not the same as cross breeding, outbreeding is breeding within a breed but not to closely related animals.

      Delete
    21. Anonymous 11:42 if you consider that the problems in Cavaliers is caused by cross breeding in an attempt to get the nose longer, why then do King Charles Spaniels, Pugs, Griffons and French Bulldogs to name a few suffer with the same health issues as Cavaliers ?
      I will give you a clue to what might be a common factor in all those breeds, they are brachy. Hilarious that you try to blame cross breeding for the ills of the Cavalier, thought you could not make such crap up, but apparently you can if you are in to pure breeding.

      Delete
  8. That video is horrific. Why hasn't the poor little dog been rushed to the vet for immiediate attention? Do the owners realise?

    I woud like a follow up on this dogs progress!

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  9. I went onto youtube to get the background on this video. Apparently the owner says this "sleep walking" pug does this because it doesn't want to go to bed yet until everyone else has.

    Im afraid to say this is a plausible reason. Pugs are quite frenetic little dogs and this is not unusual.

    I have a dog that does the same except it not a pug but a perfectly healthy JRT.

    My partner deals in countries and with people all over the world in different time zones so they are up receiving and making calls sometimes from ten in the evening to three in the morning etc.

    The dog wont go to sleep at night until we are all asleep.

    My dog plays with a tennis ball with itself while sleep walking. Pushing the ball around with his nose while on his tummy or side then dragging himself to fetch it then flicking it with his nose again. On and on while my partner is on these marathon calls.

    He has incredible endurance his little eyelids only fully close when all the lights are out and everyone is safely tucked in bed. That's when he climbs into bed and sleeps. He recovers by sleeping next to me when Im at my desk working during the day and everyone's out.

    I know pugs have terrible, debilitating and life threatening problems breathing one of them but is this what this particular video is all about?

    Its extremely distressing at face value and it might very well have breathing problems all the the time but Im not so sure this is why its doing what it is doing.

    Im not sure.

    Is it a fair example Jemima?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I also found the original video and saw the comments left by the owner. But without a dog that does this "monitoring" until everyone's asleep, I thought the owner was just anthropomorphizing his pet, blind to the issue, and possibly trying to deflect the criticism from commenters.

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    2. No Im mean yes Im not sure this dogs is standing to keep its head up so it can breath. I think he/she just cant completely relax and go to his bed and fall asleep until its sure there is no more action.

      It looks like its not allowed in the bedroom so is waiting for lights out. My son was doing this in the car this afternoon, he was dead tired after staying up to watch football, but wanted to stay awake as it was our shopping day and he wanted some new gadget. I told him I only had today free to do this on Monday already, poor boy he kept nodding off and jerking upright.

      I don't think the owner is anthropomorphising his pet as such no. Its almost like a form of "separation anxiety" and Im loath to use those words but it doesn't want to miss out basically for what ever reason.

      Besides dogs are in fact a lot more like us than we ever realised but no they aren't higher primates.

      I've recently been appalled by the this rather fashionable concept of "separation anxiety" suddenly being so popularly thrown about describing pets that are basically simply being neglected. They don't like it its not a mental health issue, they aren't human and cant rationalise being left alone like we maybe can unless we are infants.

      People seem to forget dogs are pack animals but suddenly a dog who is left alone and cries and gets up to mischief has "separation anxiety" that needs curing. It's completely insane. They don't like being left alone it's a dog thing.

      My dogs have always been my absolute shadow and thats what they like simple. Cant give this to your dog/s don't get one then abuse it by crating it and leaving it alone..........shocking shocking its pure torture you bet it can become "trained" by mental torture and confinement....

      Of topic there...anyway Im not even 30% sure this dogs is standing to try and breath and as such maybe its not a very good example to use.

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    3. Shouldn’t we want calm, level-headed dogs that are able to handle themselves alone and not go into frenzy mode because they’re left without a person to constantly supervise them?
      I live with two dogs. One is my border collie/sheltie mix, whom I could leave alone as long as required with as many leather shoes and accessible parcels of food sitting around the house with no ill consequences upon my return. On the other hand, my roommate’s dog, a poodle mix, will dive into our tall kitchen garbage can and get into our step-lid mechanism compost if he’s left alone (usually immediately upon his owner’s departure, after his shrill and prolonged barking/howling session). Both of these dogs get a generous amount of play time, walks, and affection.
      Personally I think it’s quite unreasonable to expect most people to live with their dogs as shadows and also never crate when needed. Some dogs actually enjoy the safe secure feel of a crate. Shelties in particular have strong denning instincts and my dog will preferentially use a crate if it’s available to him.
      You would wipe out most households that are able to have dogs if your standards were applied and if crating and leaving dogs alone were actually considered torture. Proper training and use of a crate undoubtedly prevents many dogs with mild behavioral issues from being surrendered. I have no doubt that separation anxiety proper is over-diagnosed, but I think you’re being a bit too unforgiving to average dog owners and a bit too apologetic for what I would consider neurotic dogs (that I would want to be selecting against if I had a breeding program).

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    4. Merrie, why do you say that SA is over diagnosed? That is just your opinion isn't? Check out the pilot study taken by the canine research team at Bristol on dogs in the UK. It's a very real issue for dogs today who are not genetically prepared to be left alone so long. The study revealed that even though a significant cohort had no outward signs of SA, their neurochemistry (cortisol levels raised) revealed otherwise. More work needs to be done and breeders need to screen dogs for this as part of temperament testing. Guide dogs UK include screening for SA as part of their breeding program.

      Delete
    5. "Dogs are not genetically made to be left alone so long"

      "More needs to be done and breeders need to screen dogs for this as part of temperament testing"

      IC so dogs must be magi mixed into a different species entirely because humans have invented a mental health issue to describe the fact that they can't meet a dogs basic needs?

      Why don't they get a cat instead far easier, it can come and go as it pleases and is happiest doing so, as its not a social animal.

      I honestly don't want a dog unless its a dog, not some brain dead machine that can't even be the social animal its meant to be. Isn't this one of the main attractions of the species? Of our species too, is loneliness suddenly deviant behaviour, maybe sufferers should be crated for eight hours straight a day.

      Crates are sanctioned cruelty in America and catching on fast everywhere with the likes of that backward trainer Cesar Millan promoting their use on television everywhere for problems that are all the owners making.

      Crates are abused, and are abuse. No dog should be locked into one even during crate training. They have a very finite function for dogs recuperating and travel and that's it.

      No idea why guide dogs should need to be any different, they re with their owners constantly they are even allowed onboard in the cabin of planes?

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    6. This is the 21st century.

      Modern life has changed and dogs are simply not set up to be pets when most people work full time and there is no companion at home for them. This is the real world. This is reality. Let's get pragmatic here and quit being idealistic.

      options available:

      1) Screen dogs to ensure that they are not sufferers of SA before breeding them in the first place;

      2) Do not allow people to have dogs who are not at home all day (the Dog's Trust already do this);

      The last would be impossible to enforce.

      So why not set dogs and people up for succes by ensuring that they get the best genetic start in life and are fit for requirements in the 21st century? Don't we owe them that if this is what is increasingly required of them?



      Who said anything about dogs being 'brain dead' if they can cope a bit better at being left alone? Do you WANT pets to suffer? It is possible to desensitise dogs to SA but how many pet owners are prepared to put the work in and understand behaviour and resulting neurobiology? WHen oh when are people going to get realistic on here and understand that until education is at a grass root level and until regulation of breeding and ownership takes place THESE ISSUES WILL REMAIN!


      Jumping to conclusions without having any facts and truth to back up your claims is not helpful for anyone involved. It's an emotional response that simply will never get anything resolved or improved for dogs or people.



      http://www.bristol.ac.uk/vetscience/services/behaviour-clinic/separation/

      Who said anything about Cesar Millan and his 'entertainment show'!? He is not an animal behaviour expert. He is a hack who has exquisite phrasing and is a charsimatic individual. That is TV gold. That is not about animal welfare.

      Crates, like any reasonable tool, are not cruel if not abused and used appropriately. Over react much??

      Delete
    7. [[This is the 21st century.]]

      You wouldn't think so

      [[ Modern life has changed and dogs are simply not set up to be pets when most people work full time and there is no companion at home for them. This is the real world. This is reality, lets get pragmatic ]].

      Absolutely, I agree with that.


      [[ 1) Screen dogs to ensure that they are not sufferers of SA before breeding them in the first place; ]]

      There is no such thing as "SA" it's what dogs are, its their nature as you've already said most pragmatically.

      [[ 2) Do not allow people to have dogs who are not at home all day (the Dog's Trust already do this); ]]

      Yes I agree, at least screen buyers, adopters etc to make sure there is adequate supervision and a dog is not being left alone in an apartment for eight hours a day. Most dog rescues do this already of course. if an owner has no one to help them be it a relative, neighbour, friend or maid they shouldn't have a dog, wrong species of pet.

      [[ The last would be impossible to enforce. ]]

      Just don't sell or let them adopt. Most agencies or rescues do home checks works well.

      I have a third option for you on your list, why not share a dog with someone else if you are out working all day? No need to discriminate against both carers with full time jobs or platonic relationships and single households, or owners without gardens etc etc?

      [[ So why not set dogs and people up for success by ensuring that they get the best genetic start in life and are fit for requirements in the 21st century? ]]

      Complete nonsense. Dogs are social animals full stop and so are humans, the century is irrelevant. You are anthropomorphising dogs by describing a condition which is reserved for human infants in relation to their mothers (mostly) parents. Not very 21st C of you.

      [[ Don't we owe them that if this is what is increasingly required of them? ]]

      We owe them everything they owe us nothing other than being themselves, dogs.

      Certainly a lot of inbred badly bred dogs have character flaws, shyness and related aggression etc but their social needs are not a flaw that needs curing.

      Owners need curing.

      [[ if they can cope a bit better at being left alone? It is possible to desensitise dogs to SA but how many pet owners are prepared to put the work...]]

      Every thing's possible, maybe there will be an operation one day that removes part of the dogs brain, or is bred born without that part of the brain, that part that dictates the need to be with others and in a pack. Like debarking a dog or pulling claws out a cat.....your train of thought is archaic.

      Im so sick of hearing "my dog has separation anxiety" its even worse when its describing a breed that is particularly social. We wanna JRT but we don't want it's character????

      [[ THESE ISSUES WILL REMAIN! ]]

      As long as dogs are being abused they certainly will.

      [[ Who said anything about Cesar Millan... That is TV gold. That is not about animal welfare. ]]

      I did. I think you are grossly underestimating the power of 21stC media and especially in America.

      [[ Crates, like any reasonable tool ]]

      A crate is not a "tool", its pure abuse, to even think it's one in training. Its completely backwards. We don't need "tools" in training, thats exactly how Cesar Millan describes crates and spiked and electric collars, as tools, as do elephant trainers with their flesh hooks........

      If you don't want your pet to miss you get a snake.

      Delete
    8. [[This is the 21st century.]]

      You wouldn't think so

      [[ Modern life has changed and dogs are simply not set up to be pets when most people work full time and there is no companion at home for them. This is the real world. This is reality, lets get pragmatic ]].

      Absolutely, I agree with that.


      [[ 1) Screen dogs to ensure that they are not sufferers of SA before breeding them in the first place; ]]

      There is no such thing as "SA" it's what dogs are, its their nature as you've already said most pragmatically.

      [[ 2) Do not allow people to have dogs who are not at home all day (the Dog's Trust already do this); ]]

      Yes I agree, at least screen buyers, adopters etc to make sure there is adequate supervision and a dog is not being left alone in an apartment for eight hours a day. Most dog rescues do this already of course. if an owner has no one to help them be it a relative, neighbour, friend or maid they shouldn't have a dog, wrong species of pet.

      [[ The last would be impossible to enforce. ]]

      Just don't sell or let them adopt. Most agencies or rescues do home checks works well.

      I have a third option for you on your list, why not share a dog with someone else if you are out working all day? No need to discriminate against both carers with full time jobs or platonic relationships and single households, or owners without gardens etc etc?

      [[ So why not set dogs and people up for success by ensuring that they get the best genetic start in life and are fit for requirements in the 21st century? ]]

      Complete nonsense. Dogs are social animals full stop and so are humans, the century is irrelevant. You are anthropomorphising dogs by describing a condition which is reserved for human infants in relation to their mothers (mostly) parents. Not very 21st C of you.

      [[ Don't we owe them that if this is what is increasingly required of them? ]]

      We owe them everything they owe us nothing other than being themselves, dogs.

      Certainly a lot of inbred badly bred dogs have character flaws, shyness and related aggression etc but their social needs are not a flaw that needs curing.

      Owners need curing.

      [[ if they can cope a bit better at being left alone? It is possible to desensitise dogs to SA but how many pet owners are prepared to put the work...]]

      Every thing's possible, maybe there will be an operation one day that removes part of the dogs brain, or is bred born without that part of the brain, that part that dictates the need to be with others and in a pack. Like debarking a dog or pulling claws out a cat.....your train of thought is archaic.

      Im so sick of hearing "my dog has separation anxiety" its even worse when its describing a breed that is particularly social. We wanna JRT but we don't want it's character????

      [[ THESE ISSUES WILL REMAIN! ]]

      As long as dogs are being abused they certainly will.

      [[ Who said anything about Cesar Millan... That is TV gold. That is not about animal welfare. ]]

      I did. I think you are grossly underestimating the power of 21stC media and especially in America.

      [[ Crates, like any reasonable tool ]]

      A crate is not a "tool", its pure abuse, to even think it's one in training. Its completely backwards. We don't need "tools" in training, thats exactly how Cesar Millan describes spiked and electric collars, as tools, as do elephant trainers with their flesh hooks........

      If you don't want your pet to miss you get a snake.

      Delete
    9. [[This is the 21st century.]]

      You wouldn't think so

      [[ Modern life has changed and dogs are simply not set up to be pets when most people work full time and there is no companion at home for them. This is the real world. This is reality, lets get pragmatic ]].

      Absolutely, I agree with that.


      [[ 1) Screen dogs to ensure that they are not sufferers of SA before breeding them in the first place; ]]

      There is no such thing as "SA" it's what dogs are, its their nature as you've already said most pragmatically.

      [[ 2) Do not allow people to have dogs who are not at home all day (the Dog's Trust already do this); ]]

      Yes I agree, at least screen buyers, adopters etc to make sure there is adequate supervision and a dog is not being left alone in an apartment for eight hours a day. Most dog rescues do this already of course. if an owner has no one to help them be it a relative, neighbour, friend or maid they shouldn't have a dog, wrong species of pet.

      [[ The last would be impossible to enforce. ]]

      Just don't sell or let them adopt. Most agencies or rescues do home checks works well.

      I have a third option for you on your list, why not share a dog with someone else if you are out working all day? No need to discriminate against both carers with full time jobs or platonic relationships and single households, or owners without gardens etc etc?

      Continued........

      Delete
    10. Continued....

      [[ So why not set dogs and people up for success by ensuring that they get the best genetic start in life and are fit for requirements in the 21st century? ]]

      Complete nonsense. Dogs are social animals full stop and so are humans, the century is irrelevant. You are anthropomorphising dogs by describing a condition which is reserved for human infants in relation to their mothers (mostly) parents. Not very 21st C of you.

      [[ Don't we owe them that if this is what is increasingly required of them? ]]

      We owe them everything they owe us nothing other than being themselves, dogs.

      Certainly a lot of inbred badly bred dogs have character flaws, shyness and related aggression etc but their social needs are not a flaw that needs curing.

      Owners need curing.

      [[ if they can cope a bit better at being left alone? It is possible to desensitise dogs to SA but how many pet owners are prepared to put the work...]]

      Every thing's possible, maybe there will be an operation one day that removes part of the dogs brain, or is bred born without that part of the brain, that part that dictates the need to be with others and in a pack. Like debarking a dog or pulling claws out a cat.....your train of thought is archaic.

      Im so sick of hearing "my dog has separation anxiety" its even worse when its describing a breed that is particularly social. We wanna JRT but we don't want it's character????

      [[ THESE ISSUES WILL REMAIN! ]]

      As long as dogs are being abused they certainly will.

      [[ Who said anything about Cesar Millan... That is TV gold. That is not about animal welfare. ]]

      I did. I think you are grossly underestimating the power of 21stC media and especially in America.

      [[ Crates, like any reasonable tool ]]

      A crate is not a "tool", its pure abuse, to even think it's one in training. Its completely backwards. We don't need "tools" in training, thats exactly how Cesar Millan describes spiked and electric collars, as tools, as do elephant trainers with their flesh hooks........

      If you don't want your pet to miss you get a snake.

      Delete
    11. Part 2,3 and 4 to be deleted. The confirmation message didn't appear each time I posted so I wasn't sure it was going through. Usually it says "your message will appear after......" or if its too long another message.

      Delete
    12. Er, there IS such a thing as SA. Just leave that to the experts....

      Obviously, you are simply jumping to a conclusion, not looking at the science and just having a black and white view of the world according to you.

      Again, extreme reactions to the use of the word 'tool'. Prong collars now appear in this discussion......why?? Why is a crate as aversive as a prong collar? I use a clicker as a tool. Am I a barbarian?? I also use a harness and a lead as training tools. Crikey! Cesar Millan has had his five minutes.....there will always be people who follow people like him. We are psychologically flawed. Check out the Millgram experiment before you start ranting about an area which you clearly don't really understand. Human behaviour!!

      If you don't want your pet to miss you, get a snake....

      Again, extreme polarised reaction to the suggestion that we don't have to continue doing what we have always done....you sound like a pedigree dog breeder in defence of their practices.

      Your ramblings on here are pretty interesting and amusing. But to be taken with a pinch of salt....

      Delete
  10. Oh my I just followed the link you provided to "GodVine" and saw the comments.

    It's just the breed.

    Oh, so no big deal then.
    Makes my blood boil!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Help this pug seems to be in distress!"
      "Don't worry, ALL PUGS snort like that."
      "Oh so it must be totally okay, I mean, ALL PUGS can't have the same GENETIC ILLNESS somehow or else someone would have done something about it already."
      "Yeah exactly, so stop whining, think of it as cute and don't go suggesting that we need to do something about it ourselves."
      "That's easy enough to do, thanks!"

      Delete
  11. Im afraid this is all a bit of a "green dog" syndrome.

    http://www.border-wars.com/2014/06/life-with-dogs-attacks-dog-breeders.html

    However a lot of the anti posts at link http://www.godvine.com/Cute-Pug-is-So-Exhausted-He-Falls-Asleep-on-His-Feet--2760.html are perfectly applicable to most pugs and other extreme brachychephalic breeds in general just not perhaps this one which sadly makes them here at least a bit of a carping frenzy.

    Of course a lot of the pro-pug remarks here on the other hand are typical of people who don't understand the issues. Yes Im sure at least 80-90% of these breeds are owned by "Joe Public" and not show fanciers and their breeders.

    Pug owners are also a cult of sorts, of course and often very misinformed.

    Snoring is cute? No?


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  12. "Most dogs do the cutest things when they are tired enough to take a nap, but we bet you haven't seen a dog do THIS before! God sure created some funny little animals!"

    I'm sure this is part of the problem. Pretty sure God didn't create these problems in an animal who is not healthy or genetically sound enough to live a normal life. Not an attack on religion as such, but believing that Pugs were created by God and are therefore 'perfect the way they are' isn't going to change the attitude towards their welfare.

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  13. Actualy it might be relevant to the health of dogs if religeon was included, this would certainly help in America for example.

    "A majority of Americans report that religion plays a "very important" role in their lives, a proportion also unique among developed nations"

    Would be equally pertinent of course to some developing nations too.

    Get a few well placed anti breed extreme priests onboard and you will be well on the way to success.

    No god didn't make little deformed animals man in his weakness......etc Could be a winner?

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  14. Sad. Just so sad. Poor little doggies. Shame on the people who breed them, but glad that someone is trying to help the dogs. But the whole breed needs help. Shame on the cult that insist that some breeds suffer, it isn't the dogs which are the true Fat Heads (brachy heads), it is the cult behind the dogs which are the real fat heads.

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  15. I have worked with animals for over 30 years and own a Vet in Aberdeen. Why are they not making this illegal and start prosecuting people?. What sort of life is this for the poor dogs?

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